Evidence of manipulation?

[Claudius]

NJ is panicking because I won't play ball and pretend things are fine. She knows if we head to divorce, the SAHM gravy train is derailed for good (unless she finds another sucker). So she's firing away with the only weapons she has - the kids, particularly D5.

Background: Last night D5 did something pretty rude - not a major thing, typical kid behavior, but not the kind of thing that goes uncorrected on my time. I spoke sharply to her - something like, "Hey! That was rude. Knock it off." In a stern voice, yes, but no personal insults or profanity. 5 minutes later she's up with NJ in NJ's natural habitat - her bedroom with the TV on. NJ starts calling me out for "screaming at D5", and says D5 came upstairs and told her she's afraid of me when I get mad.

Here's where I did the one thing I regret and will apologize to D5 for - I asked her in front of NJ if she had told NJ she was scared of me. She hugged me and said no. But it was stupid of me because I kind of landed D5 in the soup. Next time I'll do that privately. Anyway, I left the room. 5 minutes later, NJ is out in the hall with both kids in tow telling me I'm manipulating D5's mind, etc.

I believe it's NJ whose wrath she fears. I can be stern from time to time, but always with a purpose, which I always explain to D5. NJ has BPD, which even D5 gets the brunt of from time to time - "you have issues", "I want to beat her", "I need to get the f- out of here, I can't take them", "brat", "rotten", etc., etc. (She also passed on a physical threat from her father - right in front of the kids - when all I was trying to do was ignore her. I have this incident on audio.)

Anyway, NJ got into it with me again as I was getting ready for work this time, waking up D5 in the process. At that point, I kissed and hugged D5 and left. NJ followed up with a barrage of text messages reflecting her own warped reality.

So I come back from the bathroom at work half an hour ago, and I have a voicemail. There's a long pause, and then D5 saying, "Daddy, I don't like it when you scream at me. It scares me."

Please tell me this is as bad for her as I think it is. I'm not thinking calmly right now.

[RC211V]

Yeah it is effed up to do that to a kid. Don't get mixed up in it, seems like you should be extra cautious of your NJ making false accusations, so you probably want a recorder on you all the time. However you have to do it, make your relationship with your kids between you and them, not involving their mom.

[defaultuser]

Here's where I did the one thing I regret and will apologize to D5 for - I asked her in front of NJ if she had told NJ she was scared of me. She hugged me and said no. But it was stupid of me because I kind of landed D5 in the soup. Next time I'll do that privately. Anyway, I left the room. 5 minutes later, NJ is out in the hall with both kids in tow telling me I'm manipulating D5's mind, etc.

Why would you bring this up to your NJ privately? Huge mistake. Don't talk to the NJ. She's a NJ. If you don't know by now that arguing with or trying to get someone with BPD to admit they are wrong is a waste of time, you need to read up on the subject.

If you say anything to your D5, you should have a discussion about discipline. I would not apologize.

Sweetheart, I'm your Dad, and I love you very much. I love you so much that I want you go grow up to be a happy and capable person. We all do things that are wrong. When you do something that is wrong, it is my job to tell you it was wrong. If I don't, I'm not doing my job as a Dad. Because I love you so much, I will always tell you when you're doing something wrong because if I don't you won't grow up to know the difference between right and wrong. Yesterday, you were being rude. I told you about it because I didn't want you to think that was ok to do. If you grow up and are rude to other people, no one will want to be your friend. I don't think you are scared of me, but if you are, you don't need to be. When you get in trouble, its because I love you and want what is best for you. Its because I take my job as a Dad seriously. I'm not going to hurt, you I'm going to help you.

I would also keep the voicemail and document the incident. This is the kind of evidence, along with many other things to compliment it, that will help you to defeat the stupid bltch.

[Claudius]

Yeah it is effed up to do that to a kid. Don't get mixed up in it, seems like you should be extra cautious of your NJ making false accusations, so you probably want a recorder on you all the time. However you have to do it, make your relationship with your kids between you and them, not involving their mom.

You're right, thanks. I do have one (two, actually).

[Claudius]

Why would you bring this up to your NJ privately? Huge mistake. Don't talk to the NJ. She's a NJ. If you don't know by now that arguing with or trying to get someone with BPD to admit they are wrong is a waste of time, you need to read up on the subject.

Sorry, I meant that I should have asked D5 privately whether she had really said she was scared of me, not done it in front of the NJ.

You're absolutely right about not engaging the NJ. That's a lesson I have slowly learned over many years. By now I try and limit communication with NJ to the absolute essentials and even then she goes ballistic when she hears something she doesn't want to hear. It's hard to tune out verbal abuse from someone who's living in a different reality (and who constantly accuses me of things that are true of her, but not me - just mind-blowing), but with time I'm getting better at it. Realizing what BPD was and that she was a classic case has really helped with this.

If you say anything to your D5, you should have a discussion about discipline. I would not apologize.

Sweetheart, I'm your Dad, and I love you very much. I love you so much that I want you go grow up to be a happy and capable person. We all do things that are wrong. When you do something that is wrong, it is my job to tell you it was wrong. If I don't, I'm not doing my job as a Dad. Because I love you so much, I will always tell you when you're doing something wrong because if I don't you won't grow up to know the difference between right and wrong. Yesterday, you were being rude. I told you about it because I didn't want you to think that was ok to do. If you grow up and are rude to other people, no one will want to be your friend. I don't think you are scared of me, but if you are, you don't need to be. When you get in trouble, its because I love you and want what is best for you. Its because I take my job as a Dad seriously. I'm not going to hurt, you I'm going to help you.

I would also keep the voicemail and document the incident. This is the kind of evidence, along with many other things to compliment it, that will help you to defeat the stupid bltch.

I will do that. It's not the first time she has pulled something like this. Last time I got a VM kinda like this from D5, there were awkward pauses in the middle, as though she was being coached on what to say. The apology to D5 would be for asking for/offering reassurance in front of NJ, thus perpetuating an ugly situation with her in the middle, not for the initial discipline.

I really like what you wrote, thanks. I do say similar things to her often, but I may borrow some of your phraseology.

[mbxdad]

I'm running into very similar things with a middle school son. Very difficult to get unequivocal evidence. One example: NJ thinks that normal parental discipline is "bullying" and "yelling" and convincing son of same ; I think that any objective person would think the NJ is way off base, having a skewed interpretation of normal parenting (she = permissive, me = more about boundaries and rules). How do you combat that?

The good news is that you are starting to gather evidence while in the same house, pre divorce.

[defaultuser]

I really like what you wrote, thanks. I do say similar things to her often, but I may borrow some of your phraseology.

Your X appears to be very similar to mine, I've just got a few more years after separation than you and I've gotten that good advice mostly from this board over the years. I still deal with crap like my kids coming home and telling me that they are upset with me because I follow mommy around and am stalking her, etc. which is a 100% fabrication.

As far as asking your kids if they really said that, I would not. I'd try and set up all interaction with your kids that have zero mention of NJ or problems with NJ other than giving them tools to deal with her.

As far as the voicemail goes... 5 Year olds don't call up people that they are scared of to tell them that they are scared of them. She probably doesn't even have access to the phone unless NJ put it in her hands and also may not have the know-how to use it to call you. This is good evidence. Use it accordingly, and don't breath a word to NJ that you plan on doing so. Bait her so she does it more often. The short term pain will pay off in a long term win for your kids.

Walk up to your X and tell her that you got a voicemail from your kid today and you think its her fault that your kid is having problems with you, then walk away. She stupidly thinks that this tactic is effective. Give her the idea that it is. BPD's love the drama, so give her just a taste. Don't let on that you know the NJ put her up to it or that she told her to do it in any way.

[jumbledone]

In my house, we have some cats. All of them were picked by NJ.

I do the disciplining of the cats, others try, but they fail miserably because they're inconsistent, whereas I am not. With my kids, I have a big voice, and when I need to, I will raise it, but never threaten or insult, just to make sure the kids can't say they didn't hear me, or to impart strong directions (I mean, do I really have to tell you 10 times to get your shoes on? really?). As with the cats, I am very consistent with kiddos.

Guess what: The cats prefer me, and both fight over getting into my lap so I can pet them, even though I am the only one who really disciplines them. I am drawing a line here, stay with me: Just as the cats respect and love me because I set defined rules and enforce them consistently, so do my kids. The kids don't really like it when daddy is upset, because they know something is getting taken away (generally brain-sucking devices like Wii, etc.). But I am slow to that point, but very consistent with both of my kids. And they know it, and know the stages where it will escalate from a verbal reprimand, to time out, to grounding from something, and respect me for it, and once they've cooled down, and I go back to talk with them, they understand why the discipline before we hug it out.

Your STBX cannot provide that consistency. It is up to you. The kids may not like it at times, but as is often said, they crave solid structure, a dependable rock that they can lean on. Don't talk to your kids to see if they are scared of you, you are verifying the information that NJ put in there. Once you're done with discipline, check in and make sure they know you love them very much.

[Claudius]

@mbxdad - I see my future in your eyes. I'm not sure what you can do other than gather evidence and act when/if it hits the tipping point. Best of luck, and if anything helps, please post it!

@defaultuser - Thanks, there's no way D5 could/would have called on her own, and NJ admitted as much in a follow-up text. Good point, "5-year-olds don't call people up...". It just hurts my heart to even imagine that one of my children might feel that they couldn't talk to me, even when I'm angry (and I was angry for, like, 2 seconds). I need to slow down, realize it's not coming from D5, and keep gathering acorns.

@jumbledone - You're right. I may raise my voice to get attention, but everything I do with my kids is out of love.


Thanks, all.